FMS FinPub Pro

Offline Marketing Success in FinPub

• John Newtson

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FinPub Pro is produced by The Financial Marketing Summit, the #1 networking and marketing conference for financial newsletter publishers, trader educators, and digital financial media.

John Newtson, host and founder of The Financial Marketing Summit can be reached via LinkedIn at John Newtson

Welcome And VRA Insider Origins

SPEAKER_01

All right, hey everyone. I'm excited today to have Tyler Harridge from VRA Insider join us. Tyler, good to have you here.

SPEAKER_00

Hey John, thank you. Great to be here with you. Been loving the show as well. So very grateful to uh to join you here today.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks, thanks. So we met the first time at FMS uh this past year. Um do you want to give everyone kind of an overview of VRA Insider, what the business is and what you guys do?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Um I'll take a quick step back there because I I've loved FMS and first and foremost wanted to say thank you for the fantastic network that you've built there and the phenomenal people you've put together from this industry. Uh when I got started with the vertical research advisory, that's the uh name of our company. So VRA is vertical research advisory, was founded by my dad in 2003. I joined him nine years ago now. Um and as I was getting into the industry, um kind of getting my feet wet, learning really what financial publishing was even about. Um, because I think it flies under the radar of so many people, even though it's what my dad was doing at the time. Um, I got connected with Chris Daigle, who recommended me over to FMS uh and and you as well. So, you know, shout out to Dr. Daigle for that. Um but really FMS helped expose me so much to what is possible in this space and how many companies approach this industry with completely different mindsets. I love that about it. So I'll dive in a little bit more in a second to VRA for sure, and hopefully uh we're I think we're kind of one of those as well. We have a unique uh selling proposition uh that has defined a niche for us and um maybe for some other smaller publishers out there and medium and large ones as well. Um might be able to take something from what we're doing and apply it to to their system as well. Cool, cool, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, it's great to it's a great community, and it is, like you said, it's uh it's gotten more attention in recent years as kind of the broadly newsletter marketing has gained more momentum. But we've been uh you know out of the way part of the internet for so long. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Even in the direct mail days, even yes, and uh that's what I really love and have grown to love about this industry, and and again, I mean, going back through some of your older YouTube videos there for some phenomenal people, whether it's option trading, prediction markets, private equity. I mean, there's so many different ways you can approach this space. So I guess a little bit more background might help, though. So my dad, uh, like I said, Kip Heritage founded the VRA in 2003 after he spent 15 years on Wall Street, uh, took seven companies public and uh helped raise you know hundreds of millions of dollars for those companies, left Wall Street, got out just ahead of the dot-com uh bubble. And that's when I started seeing a lot more of my dad at home, too. Um but when we kind of went on the entrepreneurial route and started VRA. Um, so yes, I joined nine years ago, but this really is a family business. It's what we talked about at the kitchen table growing up. Uh, my younger brother just joined the team here as well, just uh about seven to eight months ago. My mom works here. And uh, as she would say, don't forget her other son, which is our other uh guy, Josh, here. So it really is a family business. Um, and this is what we love. It's what we we love talking about it at home um from the trading side to finding new companies, economic research. It really is what we're passionate about. So it's it almost seems surreal some days uh that we get paid to do it too. Um but that's what we're here for. We want to help people make money, we want to help retail investors make money. That's our primary audience here. Uh helping the mom and pops really because there's there's never been a better time to be a retail investor than today. Um there's so many opportunities that they don't even know that they have access to. Um so to be able to bring those to people and and see the effects for them in their financial

Products Portfolio And Publishing Cadence

SPEAKER_00

future, their retirement accounts, is is such a rewarding experience.

SPEAKER_01

That's cool. What kind of so what are your kind of what are the kind of the product lines that you have?

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Uh it's a great question because we we're probably, like I said, a little bit smaller on the product line side. So our primary product is our VRA letter, is what we call it. So in there, we have anywhere from 12 to 15 holdings at one time, and we've got everything on our website backed up, going back to 2003, every trade, every update, uh, which is also I think pretty unique because over the last three years, um, sorry, I gotta give you one more shout out here for Chris Daigle, too, and FMS. Uh, without FMS, Kip and I, my dad would not have published our book that's over here, The Big Bribe. Um, Chris was a big part of that. And so I had to give another shout out there. But seriously, without uh y'all, it wouldn't have been possible. So thank you again. Um but in 2022, we called the bear market lows in October. Uh, we published that book about one month before, and so since then we've outperformed the market each of those years, average returns of over 37% on our portfolio with some some really big winners in there as well. So uh it's been a phenomenal run here. Um, so that's our main product with VRA. And I could I could probably elaborate. I feel like I'm rushing through it here a little bit. I could elaborate. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, for for for like the kind of the the rest of the industry's purposes, you know, it's like what are your what's the general outline of your of your products? You know, you need to like give it the detail you would give a customer.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. So you get a daily update, is what we do. Every day the market's up open, you know, our subscribers will see receive an update. We also have our our free podcast after the close. We do that every day as well. We're at about 2,000 episodes now. Keep an eye alternate days. Um, that's also a fun part of the day. Um, we have our options program. So we call it our parabolic options program, um, which is in, let's see here, I think we're in our 26th program, 25th program now. Um, and we're just about to add an ETF product as well, but that'll be called vertical ETF. Uh so that website should be up now. We're you know, just kind of taking you know some pre-subscribers there, and that'll be launched here pretty soon. Um, so like I said, smaller on that size. Um, but we run it lean and mean here. Our team is small, um, and we're really hands-on as well. That's another thing for our clients that we take a lot of pride in is getting back to you know, emails and things like that really quickly and giving that where we can, right? Of course, there's the uh compliance rules always, but where we can getting back and providing feedback, or even hey, you know, maybe I can't answer this in a one-on-one, I can address it in a public forum. Um, you know, really trying to be there and help so many, like I said, retail investors to be able to succeed in this market. Because if one person has the question, probably about 15 others do as well. So for sure.

SPEAKER_01

For sure. That's cool. I mean, 2003, like kind of one of the one of the old, at this point, one of the old businesses in the in-space. You know what I mean? Like one of the legacy businesses. Um, you know, that's that's a phenomenal, phenomenal uh run. And then to have that in back issues and be able to go back and show like this is everything that we have for that long, I'm sure is pretty cool for us for some types of customers. I mean, it that that means a lot.

SPEAKER_00

And even even for me there, I gotta say to my dad as well, has been a phenomenal mentor in that regard, where I thought the business was one thing. You know, like I said, we talked about the kitchen table every night. But um from my background of so just really quickly, uh, you know, went to college here in Texas. I'm in Austin, Texas, at Southwestern. Uh, played uh baseball there for all four years and started my first business there at the time. Um and I was in resource recovery, so far away from the uh financial space. But that really got my foot wet feet wet into the marketing side of the business and the day-to-day side of running a business and being an entrepreneur. Um so kind of again, I came into it with the marketing experience and man, did I I had no clue what I was in for.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, it's it's it's definitely a it's definitely a uh I don't know, marketing lifestyle. Um but uh so you guys you guys have been running around for two, you know, I think about your story and I and I kind of can't help but think of Martin Weiss from Rice Research, right? Because his dad um started what in the 50s, 1950s print newsletter. Um and he remember him telling me that when he was in college, um he was mailing a million direct mail pieces a month or something out of his dorm room. Wow. I mean he was managing it from his dorm room, right? Um so he was like, you know, same thing, like came up in the business, and you know, he's been now he's been in the business over 50 years. Uh phenomenal. So it's really cool to see that kind of generational thing. And I know we've got a lot of a lot of other folks like that. Obviously, Jules Bonner's taking over um at Agora lately. Um Morgan Busby from Financial Media Corps, his dad is Tom Buzzby Busby from DTI, who I think started in the 70s. Um so it's really cool to see this kind of like multi-generational um aspect of of the industry um in so many different places at this point, right? Like it's it's pretty cool. So that's that's that's a cool thing to hear from you guys. Um and so I guess like what I'd be curious now is you know, you've done things differently from what from when we've talked before than a lot of folks.

Winning Customers Through Radio And TV

SPEAKER_01

Um your acquisition and marketing was not what I think people would think of initially. You want to kind of talk through what kind of channels and things that you've been working, you started with and and you guys are working on?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who would are might hear this and think, oh, you could probably optimize these three or four things. Um I'd love to hear from you about it. Um, but I do think it is um a little unique, and we had touched on it briefly as well, um, where we've really found an underserved audience here, and that is in the old media. So we were talking about mailing before. I would love, I'd be interested in doing that because of the success we've had in other forms of media, whether it's radio, has been phenomenal actually for us. And TV as well, especially the smaller networks, though, because in our view at least, what we've kind of boiled it down to is that if you're on a smaller network, the audience is really engaged, especially if it's not on a traditional cable package, it's not on YouTube TV or one of those, then someone has to download an app or very specifically go to the website. They're there very intentionally, I guess is the point. And they've been so underserved. If you hear those commercials, especially if you're in the financial space, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's all gold, right? Oh, gold or IR gold IRA, retirement, annuities, these kinds of financial products. Um, so we've found that we do fit that there's a huge need and want for a product like a financial newsletter in that audience. Um, so that surprises, and I do get a lot of um surprise looks when I mention that to people too. But um, you know, it's also again to the engagement of the audience. Uh, that's one thing kind of I mentioned earlier of really taking care of our clients. Like you said, I mean, father-son team, I'm very grateful to be a second generation now financial publisher. And uh, we're also fifth and sixth generation Texans too. So that trust and reputation means a lot to us. You know, you only get one of those for sure. Um, so with that audience, we've built a very engaged list for a long time, which is so cool. Um, I was just talking to some one of our clients earlier this week, and found out I was we were talking, we talked pretty regularly, you know, become a really good friend, and he was asking me something about his account, and I happened to go check. And he had been with us as a member, it was like two months before I even joined the VRA. Um, so uh, you know, that kind of engagement and lifetime customers on that level. I mean, you can't replace that. Um, and I think that's where a lot of that audience is,

Retention Through Service And Community

SPEAKER_00

too.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Why do you think what so what do you think it is that you have such a good retention rate with these customers?

SPEAKER_00

I definitely it's all comes from the top down. Uh, you know, my dad has done a phenomenal job of from the day that I got in the business and even before as I was, you know, going on my own entrepreneurial path. It you know, it sounds cliche of the customer always being right. But you know, when you really treat people that way, or especially when you're dealing with finances, right? Money can be so emotional for so many people. So if you get an angry email or sarcastic or anyway, just you know really understand where people are coming from, that it is an emotional topic and trying to handle it as best that you can, which is much easier said than done for sure. Um but I think that kind of of attention and care has really, really helped that a lot. Um because it's surprising. So you get an angry email or something and respond respond with kindness, you kind of you create a lifelong client through things like that. They may come back three months, six months, a year later. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01

First and foremost, like you're giving a lot, then you're responding a lot to the customer service stuff yourselves?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, ourselves, exactly. And we like I said, it's a small team too. So we do have a client, you know, specifically that side of the team for you know these basics have password, that kind of deal. But um, yeah, we like to see we do monthly webinars as well with our people to try and keep them, you know. We love our community here, and we do events from time to time as well. Um, we worked on a project, uh, maybe we'll touch it on here a little bit, but a private deal, which was a little bit on the newer side for us. Um, so get having that opportunity to get out and face-to-face, shake hands with people is always fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, that's great. So I think that that, you know, we talked about that at FMS a couple years back, about the kind of how the and we'll see how well this pulled through. But you know, there was a turn and burn era in the industry, right? To a to a degree because there's so much traffic and volume available that people would the you could go after it and it would just keep refilling, and that maybe we've moved it away from that era to where like it's it's long-term relationship, it's building depth with a customer and keeping customers longer, um, which I think I mean pr I prefer that type of publishing, but I recognize that that's not the only type of publishing that in the other version can make a lot of money for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, and provide great value to people as well. I mean, there's so many phenomenal newsletters out there, and that's I guess kind of our niche is is that smaller market of the personalized care, but there's so much value in the research with people who have huge audiences out there too. So there's so many ways to go about this industry. Um, and that's really one thing I found so encouraging too. Whether it's somebody's first time at FMS or brand new to this space, and maybe they don't like where they're at or the research they're doing or the product they're working on. Well, there's a hundred others, right? If you don't see it out there, I bet there's other people like you who would like that product too. Um, so there's really so much room in this space. I really I think even for newsletters, uh, people talk about how saturated it is, if it's Substack, or I I don't think we're anywhere near a level of saturation to be worried about.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think that's I think the my view is that the quote unquote saturation saturation is more of like it's really a more of a quality issue, not a right there. There's a quantity, like there's a lot of people who put out newsletters in any industry um that are just kind of like generic and they're not that great, and they don't really put a lot of effort into it. And it's like, yeah, those aren't that great. Um people don't read them as well. Um and there is a like there is a volume problem if you're a in a reader in this space. Like I have a Gmail account that used to be my main Gmail account, and it's like I lose things because I can't get off lists, right? And I have so much trap so much stuff going there at this point from God knows where. Um Right. No, that that is true. Right. But once you have someone's attention, if you can build a relationship and hold it, then there's no problem because like I have this too. Like I'll search for certain people's e-letters, um, make sure I check it out, or you know, have a new email address, make sure that one goes over there. Right. Um and so I yeah, I think that saturation issue is still it's it's eternally in in every form of advertising, right? Like you hit a point where everyone's like, oh, it's saturated, and then it's like it's maybe ubiquitous. Um lots of people do it, but the real core issue is that the format itself no longer gives you the attention. And so the content and relationship has to give you the attention. Whereas in the early days, like I remember the early parts of the internet, for instance, like back when your dad was starting the business, um, that just having an email list, um, people would read, like, oh, I got I got this email, I gotta read it, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that's what everybody's attention was. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

So the format in the early parts of format gives you more attention. And then as that format becomes more used and and less interesting, then the you have to like it's the content um right that that matters. And so that part never goes away in the relationship. And so, but the right, uh yeah, the but just the fact that you know someone give you your email address, that by itself no longer is like super exciting to them. Hey, you sent me an email, great. But oh no, right like this guy's email, right?

SPEAKER_00

Right. I mean, how many times a day do we all put our emails in for something that you know really we weren't that interested in? But oh, maybe I'll check it out later, and then you see that email, completely forget what it was. Um there are well, not necessarily just for products too, but on the marketing side of it, there are so many different ways to go about it, but it's such a common one is the fear method, which I think can build a huge list really quickly. Um, but now how engaged will it be? Right? Um, are they really buyers? Um and at the end of the day, if you're going with the fear method, are you still making your clients money? That's all that matters, right? Uh at the end of the day. Right. So I think there's a there's a lot of uh people who just want to build a list, right? Um and that's like you said though, that's gonna be every newsletter space for sure. Right. You can't ever avoid that. But you do need to for somebody who's newer to the space, you kind of got there is a decision to be made there, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure.

Free Trial Offers And Better Tracking

SPEAKER_01

And I want to go back actually to to to your radio advertising. And just curious, just in terms of process, are you like what do you what's the what's the call to action on that?

SPEAKER_00

So we've we've done multiple, and that's a great question there, because we have again we have tried multiple of them, and over the years, I've hands down, it's not even close. There isn't even a close second. It's the free trial. Um, so we do a 14-day free trial uh on the website VRA Insider. If anybody wants to see what that landing page looks like like, or if there's any other questions too, anybody could reach out, support at VRA Insider, we'll keep it easy. But um yeah, it's a simple landing page there. Um and like I said, we've tried other offers, discounts, but it's such a people haven't heard if they haven't heard of you before. The free trial, and we we also are we've been around since 2003, so I guess it's a bit of a luxury to have this, but we really trust in our product. It's all based off of our VRA investing system. So everything that we have to offer, we give away for free. They can download it, do whatever you want with it, all the updates, our full portfolio going back all the way. Um so it's a great introductory point. And honestly, for me as a consumer, I really like those kind of for a newsletter, I like that as well.

SPEAKER_01

So are you are you just so when I guess then again, logistical question here? They're getting the offer, the offer is a free trial, and you're driving them to a URL, or is it to the home page? Is it to like you just put the offer on the landing? Like, how do you like tell them to get to the place where they can get the free trial off the radio?

SPEAKER_00

That's so that's exactly so. That is always been a problem, is the tracking, right? Right, and now thankfully, tracking has gone come so far that it's almost it's went reverse, not who's coming from the radio shows, it's how do we tell where everybody else is coming from, and then kind of by process of elimination, that's where we can attribute those leads to a little bit. So there is definitely um it's not perfect data sets from that, right? Um, but over time, you like I said, so we do have our main website, which is separate from this landing page, so it's purely only people who see that radio show go to that domain.

SPEAKER_01

I gotcha. Okay, so it's domain specific. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we also I mean we try. Like you know, our website is VRA Insider. You try vrinsider.com/slash FMS. Well, some of you people might go to the website, but they're never going to use the slash, really. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

No, I was just curious about what your process was there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I would love to hear if you had any other uh of ways of doing it too. I'm always trying to find the best ways. I'm definitely not saying these are these are how it's done.

SPEAKER_01

We don't have a lot of people doing radio. Um we do have some doing TV. And I have to I don't remember what they're doing. I have to ask. Um but but it is it is interesting that you're you're using those as kind of dominant media um for your acquisition. Um I was talking to, I don't know if you ever heard of him. There's a wonderful, wonderful publisher, he's been in the industry forever, named um Lee Bellinger. He's a copywriter and everything else um just the other day.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I was talking to him yesterday, and he was talking about, you know, he's run a newsletter for forever, um, and the value, the LTV difference, lifetime value difference on his direct mail customers versus his email customers. And it's like it's not even the same ballpark.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so it's the it's the there is something about like we you know, we give up the not we give up, but there's the ease of media, and I think your point earlier about hey, there isn't there's people who are who are in a particular media that in a very intentional way. And that's that's I think something that that it's a really big point that they're they're they're you know they're um and engaging people who do engage from offline things are really engaged. Yes. Um and I know the direct mail, I've been saying direct mail for a while, is is I don't I don't it it didn't go away. It went away in our industry largely as you know email acquisition was cheaper. Um and the speed of data too.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And the tracking. The cost difference now is I don't think the same. We don't have the same it's uh I mean we don't you don't have the huge cost advantage online that you used to have, right?

SPEAKER_00

Right. If anything, it's probably going the other direction right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right, exactly. And the mail is cheaper. It's just that you don't have the list universes to go rent the names to scale. So there's a scale problem in the mail. Um, I think that there's you know, I've been saying this repeatedly. I think that there's a big opportunity to mail your your house file, your customers. House file, I'm aging myself right there.

SPEAKER_00

Like people don't like I know what you mean though, yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's the list, it's the list that you own of customers. Um and direct mail those people for back-end offers. I think that's a huge opportunity, you know, just more revenue. Um and then um I do think that there's I would love to see more people who are who are testing and trying acquisition things. Um you know, it's a great place to do affiliate pushes if you can find it, if you track it well um with other folks. And so there's a lot, there's a lot there. I think the offline model will increase. And in one of my touch point stories, I love this story, is a friend of mine um works at a big um data marketing data company for all kinds of like mainstream retail brands. And he was telling me a few years ago how a lot of these brands, like he used Warby Parker as one of the examples. Um they maybe maybe got up about 50 million in sales from mostly meta spending at the time. And then on meta? Yeah, right. And then they get they hit to a they hit a point where they were like the cost to acquire customers actually less if we build the brick and mortar store. And so you had all these brands, these personal kind of consumer product brands that started online and then built physical retail presences, right? And so they went back to brick and mortar as an ad, they didn't stop the one, but then they started to integrate those things. And so, like the cost to acquire customer, the difference um has been gone, right? You know, I say that in the in the in the 90s, I think it was you know a hundred to a hundred and thirty dollars to acquire customer direct mail. Um, now we have you know, periods where people are paying two to three hundred dollars to acquire customer, periods where it's lower too. Um, but it's much more on par. And it's just that the you know, just like with TV and radio, we maybe don't have the same, we don't have the same audience that you used to have. Or or rather the technology is shifted so the audience is more segmented, maybe is a better way to say it. Um and so we lost the the kind of list broker universe that the direct mail business is driven on, and that that media piece is key, which hey, great business opportunity for someone to go out there and put together a list business, direct mail business.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Or whoever's in it still, if you're if you've held out this long, you're you're probably got a boom time coming here. I put it in my notes as soon as you said it too to to uh spend some more time on that because I completely agree that that's such an intentional audience, and it is so nice to have something physical, you know, that came in from the mail. If they like to engage with that kind of that's their medium, they love snail mail, then great. They're probably being underserved, really.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then I think it's also the thing about the mail that you can I started in direct mail, so I have a it was a brief period, but it was still a period. Um you can surprise and delight the customer in direct mail, right? You can send things that are interesting and unique um by their by how they look, how they feel, yeah, and that can be really engaging um in ways, and people would save. So I can't I grew up in a house of a multi-buyer. My mom bought like all the boardroom stuff, right? So we had all the magalogs coming in, right? And like she would save the magalogs, right? And I was like, this is just a promo. But it was cool. She'd save it, and then she'd, oh, I have to go back and check that. And so there was there's there's there's a quality to it that you don't have the same uh animal. Obviously, I'm very pro-email, I don't think email is going away. Yes, but but we can use all the avenues, I think. Right. Exactly, exactly. So um I want so let's touch this. You talked about that doing that um private deal. Um and I from from what I remember, you guys had a really good success with that.

SPEAKER_00

It it was, and I I kind of just want to wrap on that last point because I is just uh really quick here. Um I was thinking about some digital ads actually, and going back to kind of my marketing foundations, it was like David Ogilby era, you know, the copywriting, but also the feel of the pictures. And to your point, if you have direct mail, is it texture thing? What is it printed on? What's in the envelope? Is there something sticking out of there that might, you know, there's so many cool areas there. Uh so anyway, it's just funny. I was looking flipping through that last week. I was like, man, no one writes like this anymore. Like this is so how can we there are plenty of great digital ads, but how can we carry that over? Um, so I think that's gonna be a fun one though. I kind of might have to touch up base with the after this to get some ideas.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Like I'm just picturing like the classic Dan Kennedy trash can mailer. He'd send those little mini trash cans with the letter stuff in the trash can.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, but you remember it, and we're talking about it now. 100%. Yeah. I love it. Yeah,

$70 million raised for a private deal

SPEAKER_00

yeah. Um, yeah, so we did do uh a really exciting deal to kind of go back to that. Um let's see. So it's been a few years now. So the name of the company is Lost Soldier Oil and Gas. It's in Wyoming. Um, the CEO is a guy named Mark Brunner, who's another kind of Texas legend here and landman legend, uh, has done multiple other projects. And so my dad and Mark, Kip and Marco way back, they did a deal in the 90s and and more before that. And we've done some since too. But um Ultra Petroleum is the kind of the claim to fame that essentially went from a penny stock to over $200 a share after being split adjusted. So uh $10,000 investment became roughly $13 million if you really held it the whole way through. Um, but that's what um got kicked off their relationship. And when Mark he's been kind of saying that this is his swan song, so when he got pitched the idea originally, he called us to come take a look at it and do the due diligence. Uh, funny enough, it's only it's in maybe 60 miles away from where their original project was, Ultra Petroleum. So it really has come full circle. But um, so we were the first people out there. We went in from the ground floor. It's 100% a wildcat well, so it's a natural gas and oil field in Wyoming, Jeffree City, uh, the middle of nowhere. It was an old uranium town, which is why no one had drilled for oil and gas there. Um, so we did the initial uh due diligence and we decided, hey, let's bring this to our people. It's something that we really hadn't done much of before, and that there's so much opportunity. Another thing about opportunity in this space from the 2016 Jobs Act, from reggaes and all the different structures out there for creative fundraising, um, that someone else could much do a much better job of breaking down than me. But um, so we brought it to our people. That well ended up being successful. Uh, we just had a new reserve estimate come in. So again, Wildcat well, very risky. But um now we just got the reports back with more than roughly 10 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. Uh, so make it the largest discovery in the Rocky Mountains of the last four decades. Uh, so that helped a lot from there. And since then, uh, from our clients and just kind of promoting it, we've uh helped the company raise more than 70 million dollars along the way. Um, so kind of I'll go full circle one more time. Uh you can have the biggest audience out there, and you know, millions of people subscribe to your list, but this is how much the engagement does matter. Um, is that compared to a lot of people out there, we probably are on the smaller side. Um, but to be able to go out there and connect people with a project they never would have had the chance to hear about any other way um has been really really special too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, especially with a quality kind of person behind it that yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's cool. That sounds that sounds pretty awesome. And there's so many quality deals out there though that I mean uh I don't know whose names would want to be said on here, so I won't, but they've been connected with from FMS that have helped out on the legal side of it, right? Oh, here's how you should structure this or market this way. I mean, from from top to bottom, um everyone's gonna be at FMS who's involved in that process. So if you know anybody out there who's looking for a resource, there really is nothing better. So I'll I gotta thank you there again. And some some here in uh I'm in Austin, Texas. I actually just had dinner a few weeks back with someone who we met at FMS. So uh have a trip to go see another group in a few weeks.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, there's a few, there's the Austin's got a few folks, you know, simple trading, John Carter and Zach Westfall is stocks to trade and um a few other folks out there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if you're ever this way, definitely let us know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that's cool. That's cool. So you your customers that are have good feedback on those on the deal then? You think they they they really like having that because it's not a normal offering for you.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It like exactly, it's not a normal offering for us, and it is something to go back to the research side of things. This is really where the fun comes in. I love the side of doing the due diligence into these kinds of projects and then being able to connect them to our people. Um, of course, you know, having success with it helps a lot. I think we probably have a lot of subscribers who felt differently if it had been a dry well. Um but you know, those we gotta do a job, good job of communicating those risks and um you know doing doing the best that you can. And really it is a communication thing. Um with anytime you got a question, hey, we're not I'm not disappearing on you. I'm still here, you know. Hey, I'm working on this or that. But um, you know, the feedback has been phenomenal for it and the appetite for it, I would say as well. A lot of people who want more projects like that, um, especially as there are more and more of them coming out. And as we get into an IPO market, like we've seen from the Cerebrus one, you know, SpaceX coming up and all of the other ones, there's gonna be a lot of potential for companies IPOing coming up.

Resources Investing Versus Tech Narratives

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, there's definitely that. And then also just in the resource space, we're obviously kind of like a year for resources, and so we expect to see a lot more like there was historically there was a whole period of time when like resource stuff was like the main thing and all kinds of ways to generate income, like income wells, there's all kinds of stuff that we used to do as an industry that has a lot of newer folks in the industry just don't even know that they it existed. Um but we also know that there's like you know, I have this old swipe file of direct mail that goes back into the early 90s and like you can go find stuff in there that like, oh, this is coming back, you're right, like versions of this, maybe not exactly the same, but versions of this are coming back. Um so I think that's like exciting is that you know one of the one of the problems with like having to be had for larger companies that have to scale to a certain point, um, right, in order to get enough volume, right? They have to like this past year we've had tons of SpaceX IPO promos, right? That's the big story. Um and like so we've we've had this consistent trend of not just these types of promos, but I'd say 80% of the promos are like the basic big tech trends, promos for acquisition, because that's what gets the attention right in the news cycle, you're getting all that, and so that gets it in there. Um, and so a lot of people just they're constantly focused on that big tech trend. Obviously, AI, huge for good reason.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um but it is sucking a lot of the oxygen out of the room, right?

SPEAKER_01

And then um you don't get as much attention sometimes on these other things. So, like one of the differences with something like a Wildcat well in my mind versus some of these other kind of reggae or um crowdfunding deals is that like you know, if that well works, right, there it's it's a it's a yes or no kind of question. And if it works, it starts paying out, right? Yes, whereas some of these other deals you can invest your money in and it could st it could work and still never really pay out.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It could be locked up for a long time, essentially dead money.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And so there's like this variability in things, and and I think that like you know, a lot of younger folks, and this is not a I'm not trying to dig or beast, I'm just saying that there's a lot of this variability that I I know I learned about, I'm still learning about from all kinds of great relationships and and friends in the industry and outside the industry. Um but if there's nobody looking for it, because they're always focused on tech trends, and you don't see that stuff, and then then when a reggae deal comes along or a private deal comes along, it's like, oh hey, this is just another tech story because that's what we understand. And you're like, those are the ones that you're like, yeah. From a from a private standpoint, was that you know, especially now? Like, how many, how many times have you heard a story of a of a of a of a tech startup and that that six months down the road, eight months down the road, like their AI thing has been given away for free.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yes. And yeah, there is so much, uh that's definitely very grateful for that being here in Texas that the mining and the energy sector is so big because it is so overlooked. And there the tech stories, which I love as well, they're so exciting and so much fun to follow, especially like SpaceX. I mean, that's the coolest company on the earth right now. But when it comes to investments, you know, you look at stuff like the mining industry, we just saw blew away every other sector for highest profit margins in these quarterly earnings. You know, gold was just at $2,000 an ounce two years ago. You know, we're now even at $4,500 or so today, not to mention above $5000. I mean, these companies are in for a massive repricing to take place. Their breakevens are below $2,000 an ounce, and you just don't see that in a whole lot of places, really. So whether it is energy, commodities, I mean, it could be lithium or thorium or you know, uranium, all these different areas that fly under the radar, but really they're such good, you know, they're they're moneymakers, not some speculative tech that, like you said, they're gonna be giving it away for free. People aren't gonna be giving uh commodities away for free anytime soon. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, there's a lot of exciting stuff there. I do another, it's not related to FMS, but I do something else for another publisher that where I'm interviewing folks around the build out of the supply chain because I have a lot of relationships there. And I did uh interview with the guy who was the head of energy transformation at the White House at one point, and like we just talked with this deep dive on what's happening in the nuclear sector, just that sector, which of course has a mining piece, it has isotopes for for biomedical stuff and just all kinds of stuff, and it's just like there's so much happening across the supply chain that it's it's super exciting to see. Um and so yeah, it's like that's to me, like the resource angle is kind of where the romance in FinPub comes from. Because newsletters used to be a very romantic, and I and I mean that, yeah, just a very romantic kind of thing where it's like it was these characters who were doing all this exciting, interesting stuff, um, you know, traveling around. It's one of the things that I love about um I I had him on channel, Sven Lawrence over at weird undervalued shares and he does weird shit investing.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. That was such a fun, exactly. That's a perfect example of whatever your niche is, you know, go for it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That was a fascinating one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Don't just copy everybody, but like find your spot and do it the way that you would want to do it. And so, yeah. Um so I love it. I I love resources, I love everything about it, and it's cool to see that that's a that's a thing that's coming back um or has come back in such a strong

Modular Growth ETFs And New Channels

SPEAKER_01

way. Um, how do you guys I guess when you guys think about growing the business, like where where's your kind of head on that now? Um you know, channels, size, like is it you know, some people get in this thing where they're like they they pick a random number and they're like, I want to be this big. Right. And other people are like, you know, like we're trying to grow at a certain rate. Um, or other people approach it as like, you know, this is what we have this pretty solid, and we're thinking about growth in terms of like maybe we're gonna add this channel or that channel, and we're gonna see what we can do, or add this division. Um, like how are you thinking about growth? I guess.

SPEAKER_00

I I love the way you presented that there. Uh that last part kind of really tied it together for me because I would say it is kind of modular in that way that we do have our business that is our core business that we love and we'll continue to market it and we do want to grow. But I do remember early in the industry kind of picking those arbitrary numbers of oh, I want it to be this size or that. Um, so it is much more thoughtful now and getting the right people in there. Um and because we do take such a personal care to it, you know, that definitely affects it. Um, but we're absolutely in a growth phase right now. Uh kind of I mentioned earlier, adding another product is a big area to kind of serve a different part of the market. It's still an area that I I love. I've been loving, there's so many great ETF products out there as well. Uh again, that a lot of people don't know about those. Um, so I'm excited to really bring those to some people. That'll be fun. Um, but mediums, I think, is really the area as far as marketing goes that we want to start expanding. So we've done TV and radio uh as we've talked about. And you know, just in the last few years, seeing the tie-in of just you know retargeting and remarketing to those, because there's plenty of people who might go to the domain, but they don't put their email address in. You know, being able to be in front of them, it does seem like that has helped optimize our campaigns, you know, not a game changer, but definitely has increased them. And so with that, expanding to more digital platforms, we're far behind the curve compared to most newsletters out there on that front, which um hasn't ever been an issue for us. So we want to use it to make the most of what we're doing in the other spaces. Um I think we're kind of in an exciting point right now, like I said, of we've got our two main core products, adding that third in a few different areas, and seeing how those that expansion goes and what other private deals come on the on online here, because that's another product that I would love to write for. Because the research and due diligence is in this is only gonna be a hotter space, I think, along the way. Maybe a little bit harder to to productize that with if you're only doing you know one one a year, two a year, right? Um so having to fully flesh that one out. But um man, I don't know if that fully answers your question, but so many different areas that uh I kind of like just to wrap it all up, our focus is to expand into that that new. Newsletter and um and keep blocking and tackling essentially for the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I I like that. I think that's um I definitely think that like when I think, you know, having been in the industry now for so I was a couple years after your dad, I was in 2005, 2006, somewhere in there. Um and having talked to so many folks who've built businesses, started ones, shut them down, started other ones, um, or been running for so long, it's interesting to think about like how how people think about growth, right? Because there's always this period where it is like you said, like the oh, I want to be this many million, you know. Um and then that's not super productive. Right. Because right, and then whenever somebody's talking about the business more modularly, like you are, um, this is this is a business that's a business, not a promo fo not just a promo factory, right? Um where you're thinking about the you know, the customer, taking care of the customer, adding products that fit that aren't gonna damage the relationship with existing customers or see in avenues of growth, but it's a very, like you said, blocking and tackling. It's like you're you're gonna kind of grind out a bigger business, and you can have big hits and and and big growth with that still. But it is interesting that I think that the mindset that I hear, um, and I've gone through it myself at different times, like, oh, I want to have this, and you know. Um and it is that like, no, this is the X number of things that we need to kind of solve next approach.

SPEAKER_00

I personally like that approach. Like I said, it's not the definitely not the only way to do it out there. Um, but when I can kind of break it down like that and set some milestones in there too, so it's not just everything's up in the air for it. Um, there's one point you made there that I thought was so good too. Of um, I'm sure it'll come to me in a second. But I mean, adding products that are that do fit well with your audience too, not just throwing it all up against the wall, whether it's promos, right? It could be a lot of feast or famine, which is great. Maybe that's your business model. Um, but if you're in the game longer, it's kind of like the market. You know, you're gonna have a lot smoother of ups and downs if you just stay in it. You know, time in the market is better than timing the market, they say. Um, and I think the same is true for a newsletter business. It's just being around longer, you'll have a phase where, oh man, that kind of went viral to this audience, and I got a bunch of people from it. And then maybe you know, you go a few months and things kind of level off, and then the next thing happens. Um and yeah, for sure. But kind of trusting the process is easier said than done for that one for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Do you guys do you guys? I'm just curious, do you do have do you work with affiliates at this point in either in any direction?

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, we currently do not. We have in the past, and that's another area actually that I would say is is very much on our radar right now. We've loved it in the past. It's it's great working with with people in that regard. So um, and there's so many new tools out there for affiliates that yeah, and that's an area I I definitely could spend some some more time on uh digging into. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, you know, tons of people in the industry planner, always looking for relationships, happy to make connections for you or anyone who's listening. Um you are you're the best at it, seriously. No, I'm I I'm I'm volatile, I'm like super useful, and then I disappear for weeks at a time.

SPEAKER_00

So um you gotta keep it exclusive. That's right.

SPEAKER_02

That's right.

SPEAKER_00

No, seriously, you've always been fantastic. I can't thank you enough. And um, I am gonna that both the direct mail and and affiliates uh follow up with you after this. And um I I know I have one other thing to do.

SPEAKER_01

If you can make it, I'm telling you, like we're gonna you're welcome to we have our you know FMS Pro thing that we do the market beat. So Matt Paulson and Will Bushy at Market Beat are gonna host us at their offices in Sioux Falls in July. And then um Richard Rentrup is gonna host us at his offices in Bonn, Germany in October. Um and they're a fantastic both fantastic publishers. Um we usually get good crews to show up um at these things, and so great place, you know, kind of like FMS is the big thing, and then we have these meetings where you know it's a great place to kind of connect with diehards um and people who are doing stuff there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and I I need to be there for that because it is so much fun being around people in the industry, you know, having these conversations with you know, just this day to day. If you're at you know having dinner with some friends or whatever, um, have no clue what this space is. So it really is fun to have a conversation with people who are so plugged into this space. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I love it because you find stuff out that you, you know, like I'll talk to people multiple times a year in person and this and that, and then it'd be like we're having lunch randomly, and then they drop something, and you're like, how could you have not ever told me that before about what you're doing? Yeah, you should have led with that. That's super useful. Yeah. Um, so yeah, definitely the in-person stuff is is is great, but uh it's only good because folks like you come. That that's what makes it good, right?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, well, thank you. Because I had great folks who invited me too, for sure. You've really done I can't I can't overstate it. I I really do how much we appreciate it. No, but my whole team feels the same way. Well, I appreciate I really I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01

Um I've got I'm I'm lucky, we've had so many great friends in the industry. Um I was I had a for another project, I was um recording a conversation with um Charles Mizrahi, who um runs prosperity research at this with this at this point. Um he's been a publisher and or editor in the industry for as long as I've been in it. Um I met him in 2007, six, seven. Um great friend, uh just great person, great human. Um and so it's really great. Like we have just a great industry, you have good folks, and it's such an interesting niche, such an interesting business. Yes, and so much to talk about because you got markets, you got politics, you got business, you've got marketing, like it's endless.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And I mean that just scratches the surface right there. And the people who've been around it for so long, there is uh it does seem to be a common mindset of hey, I might do this space and you do that space, but hey, let me know. I'm a resource, I'm here. Um, and I love that that attitude too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, it is. It's like there's a very yeah, everyone's willing to share. Everyone's just willing to kind of share and be involved. And so that that's that's a really cool aspect of our industry. And I think we have people coming from other industries, especially people who come from more corporate environment. And like the you know, one of the comments that I always get is they're kind of shocked after their first FMS. It's like people were just like offering me free information that was useful, and people were offering me relationships to connect with people, like all this stuff. It's very strange.

SPEAKER_00

It is truly unique, it really is. Because in the corporate structure, there is so much competition, and in this space, if if we're helping build an audience and it benefits all of us, it makes the industry more trustworthy in a space like there is with every space that has bad actors, you know. Um, if we can keep promoting the good ones, then it you know, rising tide lifts all boats at the end of the day. And so trying to h hold in that secret sauce, you know, doesn't help here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. And the secret sauces that people think they have are often not secret sauces.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It may work right now, but will it work in that in a bear market, you know, or will it work in a bull market or you know, whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_01

And I've had people who are like come in like that, you know, and they've said like they'll share all their secrets, quote unquote, and then they're like, Well, most people aren't gonna use them anyway.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, Elon's the best example of that too. You know, having the open source on so many patents, like, hey, if you want to do it, come come on. Here it is. Here's how I did it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So this is cool. So I really appreciate you doing this, man. This was great to talk to you. Um, if anyone wants to connect with you, um, where should they connect with you?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. So um VRA Insider is that funnel page if everybody wants to just see how our marketing goes. Um, and then the more about us page is vraletter.com. Uh so that's a little bit more info about us. There are podcasts and stuff like that. But any questions, feel free to reach out to me personally. My email is Tyler at vransider.com. Or if you send it to support, I'll see it too. We see them all. So um, like I said, we've got a small lean team here. It's my dad, my brother, my other brother as well, Josh, and and my mom. So, and we've got a couple other, we got Danielle on client care. So, hey, we we we're always communicating. Um, and I'd love to be a resource for anybody as well, or just answer some questions. So again, I can't thank you enough for for having me on today. It's been a blast, too. This is a fun conversation. This is great, man. I appreciate this.

SPEAKER_01

I really, really do. Um, thanks, and uh we will see you at the next next event.

SPEAKER_00

Looking forward to it.

unknown

All right.