FMS FinPub Pro

Copywriting for financial newsletters with Patrick Bove, top FinPub Copy Chief

• John Newtson

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Patrick Bove is copy chief at Legacy Reserach.

He's been writing copy in financial since 2008.

And has a growing team of nearly 30 copywriters writing for him.

In this conversation, Patrick explains what ideas are selling now.

The market has changed.

That means the ideas you use to sell subscriptions has to change, too.

Patrick talks about the current hot spots in the market. 

More fundamentally, he talks about how your promotional copy has to adjust to the market conditions. 

When I asked Patrick about what ideas are working now in Finpub he did NOT start talking about promotion types - he started talking about interest rates.

And how interest rates are impacting the world.

Why? Because when the market environment changes on a fundamental level, the ideas customers respond to also have to change.

"Yesterday's big promos are just fossils. You can't dig them up and make them work the same way."

In this conversation, Patrick also invites any copywriter who has sold $10 million or more in a year, or 50,000 front-end names in a year to join him at the Legacy Research Conversion Summit, an invite-only financial copywriter meeting with many of the top performing copywriters in the industry to talk copy.

FinPub Pro is produced by The Financial Marketing Summit, the #1 networking and marketing conference for financial newsletter publishers, trader educators, and digital financial media.

John Newtson, host and founder of The Financial Marketing Summit can be reached via LinkedIn at John Newtson

John Newtson:

All right. Hey everyone. I'm excited today to have Patrick Bove, who is the copy chief over at Legacy Research, with us. Patrick, thanks for being here.

Patrick Bove:

Oh, good to be here, John.

John Newtson:

I'm excited to talk to you because you have been a copy chief in the space for quite a while now, Going back to your Stansberry before. How long have you been writing copy?

Patrick Bove:

Almost five years. I mean copy chief chief for five years writing copy, since about 2008.

John Newtson:

So the last, the last worldwide meltdown um, I've come full cycle one of the few, few people who are still here who've survived and thrived um since then. Um, and I guess that's actually maybe a great kind of place to jump into this is that there's a lot of things we can talk about with copy. But I am fascinated right now with kind of the groups who are capturing the current state of the market successfully and people who still haven't quite gotten the message. That kind of what you talk about is different. So how would you characterize, like the change that we've seen over the last few years and maybe even throw it back to 2008? What do you see as different or the same?

Patrick Bove:

I think it's just as dramatic, or worse potentially than that, and it's having lived through those cycles, you know this is a learning-based business, which is amazing, right? We all get to think and write and measure the results and we know, either anecdotally or through working in a business, what's working and we try to do more of what's working, less of what's not. And when you end up in a big long-running trend, whatever it is, you can get really comfortable. And it is a wonderful thing because you the beginnings of this business really which are not literally the beginnings, but let's just say the beginnings of Agora, because that was such a big development the growth and flourishing of these businesses has been perfectly correlated with falling interest rates. They did nothing but fall through practically the entire history of this business, with a few ups and downs along the way, but the general trend was down and most people don't want to talk about interest rates because on the surface, of course, they're very boring and I don't generally like to talk about them either.

Patrick Bove:

But the price of money is the most important price in the world, as it's been said, and it affects us because, hey, when money's cheap or free assets tend to levitate, just about anything goes up. You have crazy things like the NFT boom. You have people piling into collectibles and it's predictable and exciting and it's a different sort of market to sell into. But when the price of money is rising, all of a sudden there's an opportunity cost to taking that risk when you could have 5%, 6% risk-free. And so investors are not as excited, not ready to throw down. They're just a bit on the fence, a bit more skeptical, and that's the environment we're in now. But the strange thing is is it's not, I would not say at all, we're in a bearish market. In the newsletter business today. My fear is that we're going into a massive bear market, but today at least, there are still pockets of excitement and greed.

Patrick Bove:

In crypto, bitcoin's had a fantastic year, no question.

Patrick Bove:

In AI, well, you could argue AI may be holding the entire stock market up, when you talk about the Magnificent Seven and those giant tech stocks that are literally dragging the Nasdaq higher while the rest of the companies are floundering.

Patrick Bove:

It's a pretty strange time because we have this kind of a splintering going on in the market, where there's tons of things to be afraid of for sure or concerned about, but there's a lot to be excited about as well. So we end up with this kind of a weird blended market and, depending on what you're selling, that will dictate your approach, so that will dictate a winning approach. So the same type of approach that works right now in crypto or AI, it may not work in other sectors of the market, and writers that are a bit tone deaf to that for sure they're going to struggle. They're 100% going to struggle, because they're not talking to the customer, they're not entering that conversation. That's in the customer's mind, as we like to say, has been said for years, and when we do a good job of that, we tend to sell a lot more.

John Newtson:

You know I love and I can't emphasize how much I love the fact that when I asked you about what's working in copyright now, the first thing you start going to is talking about the general actual market environment.

John Newtson:

And because I do think that there's this huge disconnect with a lot of I would say a lot of not just junior writers, mid-level writers, but also some publishers and marketers who have spent so much time focused on the craft of marketing and copy that because of the fact that we were in this environment that was the longest bull market in history, for so long we're able to not think about the market the way that they have to now.

John Newtson:

And I think that this period of time demonstrates more than anything in recent years that your business is tied to the market and copy lives or dies by how it engages with those ideas. Do you find that? I mean, let me say this first but you guys at legacy and I would say it stands veryberry as well and over at Investor Place, I feel like are the groups that have most consistently stayed in what I think of as the classic newsletter approach of talking about the markets very, very fundamentally and haven't strayed from that and just chased, you know, here make a 10,000%. Here I mean, you're nodding your head, so I'm assuming you would agree with that.

Patrick Bove:

Yeah, I mean there's with few exceptions, like with crypto, which broke everybody's brain with what was possible. You know that was. It's all in context, though. But yeah, I think there's been a solid investment backing to this business. We haven't gone totally crazy, you know. I think we've shown some restraint. It's hard, I mean.

Patrick Bove:

I understand why people do push the envelope in a roaring bull market because there's money to be made and investors are willing to believe anything, because anything seems possible. And it's true. It's a shared delusion, but the money is real in the moment. If you can grab it and reach out and hold on and get out at the right time. It's real, but it's a delusion nonetheless. So I think the best thing you could ever do is arm your customers with that information and just lay out the true risks upside the downside. We've done a really good job here, talking about position sizing, which is just huge. Don't risk more than you can afford to lose. Don't put more the true risks upside the downside. We've done a really good job here, talking about position sizing, which is just huge. Don't risk more than you can afford to lose. Don't put more than 500 bucks or a thousand bucks into this little tiny crypto, and we try our best to do that so that we don't blow our customers up when the market inevitably turns, because ultimately they're going to remember, they're going to resent the fact that if we led them down the wrong path. So that's something that we're always thinking about and trying to balance between um, we're not like we're fiduciaries in a true financial sense, but trying to be advocates for our readers and concerned for their welfare, but at the same time, you know, we have we're, of course, we have to sell. So, um, we have to walk that line and it's and.

Patrick Bove:

But during the boom years, I think just, yeah, it was just crazy bonkers. What was going on in the markets? All these possibilities were popping up left and right, all of them. There was money floating in the air. And I remember that feeling because when I got, I remember when I got married in 2006, it was in Las Vegas and that was just right into the teeth of that housing boom that would turn into the Great Recession. And the pastor that married I got married at the MGM Grand, and the pastor who married us was also in real estate, of course, you know, because it's Vegas, and I remember him saying, like Patrick, there's just money floating in the air. And there was, there was. There was cheap money floating in the air, and when you have cheap money it has to go somewhere. It can't just sit in cash. It flows into anything that's real, tangible or scarce, and and real estate was one of them.

Patrick Bove:

So and I was a completely new wet behind the ears copywriter at that point barely even started with copy more on the editorial side, and I didn't really truly understand what was happening. It just seemed like well, isn't that great. Wow, you could just buy something and do nothing and its value will go up, and then you could make money. Wow. And I remember the feeling of FOMO that existed back there in the housing market, and I recognized the feeling of FOMO so well in myself as an investor. I'm sure you did too. When that feeling where you just feel like this itch like gosh I don't know if I own enough it's almost like you're regretting something that hasn't even happened yet. You're picturing yourself in the future, looking back and shaking your finger at your former self why didn't you take action? That's such a powerful feeling and in our business that's a primary motivating force.

Patrick Bove:

I think a lot of copywriters don't understand that we don't create, that we can't truly create demand or belief in this business. It's very difficult. You can only do it in rare occasions when you have an amazing guru with a following that's like deep that's been with him forever. They will go follow him into the desert for sure if he believes there's water. But it's very difficult. You cannot orchestrate belief. All you can do is channel it. So when you're in a bull market it's just diverting this fire hose of interest and excitement. In a market like today, well, it's not a trickle, it's not dripping out of the end of the hose, but it's not pouring out either. So you're in a different environment where you can't assume somebody is just ready to throw down and buy whatever you're selling. You have to really meet them where they are and understand and try to anticipate how they're going to be feeling from one quarter to the next. And that's really difficult.

Patrick Bove:

I think that's what a lot of guys struggle with. Is they think of good copy as just copy that worked in the past. I'm going to try to emulate the structure, I'm going to try to take this theme. But they don't realize that structure is sort of like the fossil record. It's a record of what's worked in the past.

Patrick Bove:

You're digging for dinosaur bones doesn't mean you're going to bring the dinosaur back. It doesn't work that way. You can put it together on display in a museum but it's not going to roar and shiver and just like charge down the hall. It's dead. It existed and it's informative that it once did. Right, there's a history there. But we can't bring something back. So when the nature of the market and the feelings surrounding investing changes, the structure must adapt, and I'm giving a talk all about that at the upcoming event we have in Baltimore. I think it's really critical how structure is in itself a living thing. It's not some ossified like fossil that you can just pull out and write something that follows in a precise, you know, order or architecture that worked before. The structure itself is an answer to the reader's feeling and objections like and it must be suited to the world in which it's released um, in that moment it's alive.

John Newtson:

So that's something I've been talking about no, I love that and that, just um for everyone who who is listening, the um you guys are doing a copy or a senior, a senior copywriting summit. Um, meet up in balt Baltimore in a couple weeks here and let's talk about that real quick before we go back in, because I don't want to wait till the end to mention that, because it's important for anyone out here who is an experienced veteran copywriter to know that this is going on. So what do you got going on? What are you guys doing?

Patrick Bove:

Yeah, we've never done this before. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're trying to attract the top talent folks who might have an interest in working with us someday. Honestly, if they work with us or not, I don't really care. I just love hanging out with great copywriters and marketers. So, either way, if something comes out of it soon or later, it's really not a concern. But we're just going to bring some of the best minds together.

Patrick Bove:

We've assembled a star-studded cast of folks within MarketWise to present on our learnings, what we've learned over the past several years, what's worked, what hasn't worked, what we're trying now, and we're going to have a couple of days together in Baltimore to just sit together and talk about all these things, answer questions, share our successes, our fears. I'm going to be sharing some fears and what I'm doing about it, about the future and how we adjust with the market. But yeah, it's going to be unlike anything we've ever done before. We have I'll be speaking there we have Justin Gershwin, who's one of the top writers at MarketWise. There we have Andrew Basaja, who's I mean he's sold over a hundred million worth of copy himself, you know, at Legacy, which is just insane in the space of a couple of years, which is just mind blowing. We have we have David Babineau, one of our top copywriters, here, ryan Markish, john Alexander, our marketing director, so we're we got our all-star cast together, and Evaldo Albuquerque is going to be there as well, which is fantastic. You know he's going to give a talk. So, yeah, there's a lot to learn, a lot to think about at a time like this, a lot to reflect on, and we just want to get together with some like-minded folks who are really at the top of their game and just share what we've learned and get to know them a little bit better and just hang out for a couple of days, and it just seems like the right thing to do.

Patrick Bove:

You know this business, you know it continues to shrink in a strange way. You know there's a lot of and there's businesses that go away and there's businesses that get absorbed, you know, and market-wise, strangely, has become this new Agora. I mean, I never would have thought it would have happened this fast. It's really. When I came down here in 2019, agora was still thriving. Um, but now a lot of the talent has been absorbed into our business and it just seems like that's, that's the trend, which is, um, I'm, and I'm sad. I'm sad for the industry that that's happened, in a way, because it's I really thrive on the competition I love. I love this marketplace of ideas we all created and how we could all learn from each other.

Patrick Bove:

I don't think this is a permanent condition of shrinkage, I just think it's cyclical. But in the meantime it's good for legacy, it's good for our business because it brings us into contact with all these incredibly talented people who may have never even moved. If everything else was going smoothly, they would have no reason to go anywhere, they were happy. But now it just gives us a chance to get to know them, to work with them. So we're really assembling this unthinkably incredible team across the business and I just feel like, week after week, month after month, it's like upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. Oh my gosh, we get to work with this guy.

Patrick Bove:

So it's an exciting time in that way, which is great, because I think when you have so many great minds together and they're willing to work together and help each other, wonderful things can happen. You know that learning machine I talked about. It gets kicked into overdrive. You learn faster, you iterate faster, you figure out what's working faster because you have all these bright minds working on it, and as copy chief, my job is essentially you figure out what's working faster because you have all these bright minds working on it, and as copy chief, my job is essentially just to make their life easy and just smooth the way. So, and if I can do that well and I'm working with the brightest people I can then my life gets easier too, because I don't have to jump in and meddle as much.

John Newtson:

Right, right, yeah, no, I'm excited Ryan invited me to come up for that, so I'm I'm gonna pop up there, uh, and I'm really looking forward to it. Um, and if anyone isn't, so who? Who would be invited?

Patrick Bove:

then we're looking for just like senior level riders who have sold, you know, at least at least 10 million in a year and on the back end, and maybe like 50 000 names on the front end, just folks who've been knocking around for a while, who just know their stuff and you know there'll be a time and place for folks who haven't made it to that level. We're just not looking to build a junior class right now and we've completely retooled our business over the past year, so the greatest focus right now is getting actualizing all those gurus and all those franchises within our business. So in order to do that we can't do that with junior level talent. I don't have time really to train a class of juniors we need to bring in the top talent we could possibly find with a proven track record and pair them up with these editors and grow their businesses. We had the last, so 2022 was just god awful for everybody, of course, and this year has been better. But through this, through the challenging market that we faced those past two years, we've we've really completely retooled our editorial side of the business. We brought on so many new gurus with so much potential.

Patrick Bove:

But but of course, it takes a lot of effort and time to to get these guys up and running, to get them a proper front end, to really just shine up their back end, just make it sparkle. We need the best people on earth to really help us do that. We couldn't really do it with the team we had already. We're just not big enough. We've been on a quest to find and hire and work with the brightest talent we can. We don't care where they work, where they're from. There's a bunch of guys I've just signed up for tire kicker deals to say let's take it for a test drive. There's other ones who are on contract. There's other ones who are in house, really flexible about that sort of thing. But that's what this is all about. We're just. We had this drastic need in the business for the top talent to come in and help launch and grow these individual franchises.

Patrick Bove:

And so next year yeah, if the if, of course, if the market would just cooperate. If a market just goes sideways, I, if it goes up, we're golden. If it goes sideways, we're going to be fine. That would be the perfect growth environment. If it goes down, well, you always have to adjust. You have to find what's working and what's not and retool. You have to stay flexible in this line of work, but I want to be in the foxhole with the best people possible. If the worst was to come, I want to be in that foxhole with the most talented copywriters in the world, and if the best is to come, I still want that because we're going to make tons of money. So, either way, all roads lead to that outcome.

John Newtson:

Yeah Well, it's funny, I think, of this business as kind of having, when a bear market hits, you have a double bear market, right, you have the actual market, and then you have this period of time as people slowly, never all at once start to realize that their messaging has to change and in some cases their products have to change in order to meet the new market environment and that is, and so it extends the bear market for the publisher in a painful way, and so that's part of like, I guess, the discipline of publishing is knowing when to kind of hey, this is a new environment, this is not just a bad quarter or two, and then switching to what that new environment messaging is.

John Newtson:

Yeah, and there's always a lag yeah, yeah, I remember this from 2008 and 2009. It was like, um, you know, the market was going up for for a while before people really were able to capture it from a copy perspective on a consistent basis.

John Newtson:

Anyway, uh, because, the fear in the market is different than the, the greed boom times. That like tentativeness of the prospect in the reader, uh is a different thing. It's a different feeling. And then, even on top of that, then you have new business opportunities, new investment opportunities. They shift and they change. And now there's maybe a new sector and there's a new thing that you have to look for. And if you're not paying attention to that and you're still focused on you know kind of like to your point to look for, and if you're not paying attention to that and you're still focused on, kind of like to your point of the fossilized copy, if you wrote a brick promo right now, nobody wants to hear about it.

Patrick Bove:

It doesn't even matter. That's the thing. It doesn't even matter if it's true, if the bricks are going to rise up and take over. That's just such, at best, a latent fear. It's just not even there. Forget about top of mind, and I think that's what a lot of guys have to understand. I think in a bullish market you can take on more quote unquote vanity projects at less risk, and I define a vanity project as something like you personally, as a copywriter or marketer, are passionate about. But in this kind of market that'll kill you. You just can't. You got to be right over the target, intentionally over the target. You have to really understand your customer, what they're feeling. You have to understand the asset class you're writing about and what the psychology in that corner of the market is. Otherwise, no amount of copy talent will matter. If, if, if, the idea and execution is wrong, it's. It's just impossible.

John Newtson:

So, as copy chief, how do you, how do you kind of get your team focused in the areas that are like kind of the highest likelihood of success then in in this environment or any environment? How does that work? How do you work together with? Do you have researchers? Do you have regular editorial conversations Like how, what's that look like for you guys?

Patrick Bove:

The more in a bullish market it was obviously. I'll just say the contrast, because I think it's important In the bullish market. It's easy, because it's forgiving. It's very forgiving of mistakes. It's bowling with bumpers. It's bowling with bumpers.

Patrick Bove:

People have to admit that Now, when I bowl with bumpers, I still don't bowl 300. A pro is still going to smoke me, and there's some great copywriters who made a ton of money and were extremely successful in the bull market. There's some mediocre copywriters who did well, but there's a big gap between them. So there's always going to be that skills gap, no matter what type of market we're in. In a bear market, though, there are no bumpers, so there are gutter balls, there's risk, there's a chance that what you write is not going to work, and so I take a different management approach. I'm taking one now, and I'm going to continue to have a different approach if the market gets less hospitable, to help gently drag people over the target and really just try to, because ultimately, I mean most copywriters they don't want to hear the word no and they certainly don't want to be controlled and I don't want to control anybody, to be honest but but if it's, if they're going to bet three months of their life on a project like I have to. I have to. I'm protecting them in a sense, like I'm protecting or I'm trying to coach them to focus on the right areas of the market. So the more, the more difficult the market would become, the more hands-on I would become as a copy chief, just to make sure that we get everything possible out of what folks are working on and that I'm alerting them to exactly what's working. I'm sharing a running dialogue about what's happening in the market, what it's likely to mean, and we can't just go out now and bang the money drum like you could during the bull market. I felt like watching that market. It was crazy. It was just a parade going down the street, make money, make money, make money and then banging the drum and people are running out onto the street just shoving dollars at you. It was that simple, but now we're not in that market. So if I see somebody writing something that would appeal to a more bullish reader right now, we're going to be really careful about it. Unless it's about if it's about crypto, fine, game on, because crypto is doing great. The halving is coming up next year. If it's about AI, well, there's so much potential there in AI, maybe it's even bigger than crypto. But if it's for an out of favor sector of the market, then we just have to address it differently.

Patrick Bove:

And ultimately, what everybody has to do if they want to succeed and survive in a difficult market is become a better storyteller. Really, you need to invest your own money. There's no exceptions to that. You can't pretend. You have to invest your own money. You have to absorb the psychology of the market and write stories that would appeal to actual investors. It shifts.

Patrick Bove:

I was thinking this morning. I came up with this whole sell the sizzle, not the steak, thing is a classic advertising trope and it's a cliche because it's generally true. But the difference is in a bull market, you sell the sizzle. That's all people want is sizzle. In a bear market, there ain't no sizzle. You got to sell the steak, and if you don't have steak, you're not selling anything.

Patrick Bove:

So by stake I mean like real hardcore, like investing stories that appeal to diehard investors, not gamblers, diehard investors and that's the balance, I think. And so a lot of these businesses in a bull market will orient themselves toward gambling because people want to gamble, they're in the mood to gamble, they've had a couple of drinks. They're in a casino, they're feeling flush, they're in the mood to gamble. They've had a couple of drinks, they're in a casino, they're feeling flush, they're going to throw down In this market. No, this is like a bit of a. It could be a bit of a hangover, or it could be, or it just could be a bit more stressful or not as not as excited as that. So you can't. You can't talk to them the same way, and that's what I call just selling the steak, like you, and that's what I call just selling the stake. You have to learn how to sell the stake, because anybody can sell the sizzle and do all right in a bull market, but selling the stake is much more difficult and it's also it's not all on you. You have to're not sort of products that could profit from or minimize damage in a bear market. Then you got some trouble because you could only sell what you have.

Patrick Bove:

And luckily in this business, at MarketWise, we have this amazing portfolio of products to sell. Legacy we do. We've been developing it, retooling the business, trying to do the best we can. It's not perfect, we've got a few holes, but we're working on it. You know, like we always are, you can never you never truly have everything covered, because you can't. You can't have all the experts in the world working in your business. But we just do the best we can over time and we play the long game and we try to bring the most brilliant people into the business we can so that, so we truly do have transformative products to sell, which makes a copywriter's job a lot easier yeah, I remember when I, when, when I had interviewed porter on this channel, he, um, he said something that was awesome.

John Newtson:

He said a lot of things are awesome, but one of the things he said that was so, so like memorable was that he was talking about um. Is it david ifrag? I can't remember if it was him or whoever does biotech? Um, oh, last minute, last minute, that's it. Um, and how you know, he goes to all the conferences in biotech. He's up to date on all the different things. He spent a lot of money to get him. He's a. He's a very expensive editor because he has. He could be in hedge fund somewhere.

John Newtson:

Um, but when he writes, there's a density of information there that makes it interesting to a actual investor. And then porter drew that over to. This is why I want to put like our promos are dense with actual information, because we're talking to actual investors who have skin in the game, versus kind of the. You know someone who has. You know I have $5,000. I'm gonna spend 2000 of it to buy this product. Tell me how to become a millionaire is very different than someone who's like I don't want to lose my life savings and I have a big one.

Patrick Bove:

Yeah, yeah, and that's, that's who we want to attract to the business Ultimately, people that are doing this. I mean, we all feel like we have to invest one way or the other, but the people are choosing it for themselves and who who love it, they want to learn more. That enjoy it. Enjoy the process of, like figuring out what's going to go up the most or what's not going to go down and why. So it's entertaining, like to that audience. It's entertaining, it's not boring, it's entertaining, like to that audience. It's entertaining, it's not boring, it's entertaining.

Patrick Bove:

So if a copywriter is bored by this, they're in the wrong business. You know, like there's there's only a couple of guys I've seen who are, um, outwardly bored, who were successful because that's, they were supreme talents, they would have been successful at anything, but they're the outliers. You know, like for for the guy who's like somewhere in the middle of the pack, like there's no chance if you're not geeked out on this stuff, there's just no chance and it's just going to seem like a ton of work, um, and you're not going to want to be able to adapt and roll with the market. So I've always been. I've been geeked out on it ever since I read bill bonner's empire of debt years ago, back in 2005, before I even started working at agora, and that's his thinking resonated with me on such a deep level and just opened my eyes to how this world is working and with respect to the government and money printing and debt and the way that I hadn't thought of before and that sent me on this path.

Patrick Bove:

So I've been on this constant quest to learn more and understand it myself ever since, and I'm a diehard newsletter reader. I love reading newsletters ours, other folks, I mean I collect them. So, yeah, I mean I think that helps you connect with a customer. You could really embrace that perspective I want to sell to diehard newsletter readers who love investing, who want to learn more about investing. Ultimately, what Porter proved is that when you do that well, you attract a tribe that resonates with you and is going to stick around beyond just the bull market. I don't want to attract a bunch of good time Charlies who are only here just to throw down and gamble and then when the music stops, they're out the door and ultimately, that's the challenge of these businesses and navigating these big shifts in the market to not shut yourself off from what could be very profitable, but not go so far down that path that you lose perspective or you're pandering to the wrong audience, who's only there for a good time, for a few minutes, versus sticking around.

John Newtson:

Yeah, and it is. It's such an interesting business because it's like, on the one hand, you could look at it through the lens of it's almost like a macro fund, where you have to identify big trends and ideas and you have to then go attract investors in this case, subscribers around those ideas and they have to be correct in order to keep those guys coming.

John Newtson:

There's an element of on the extreme end, you could say InfoWars as a media business that has to be in a digital environment, a little bit more hyperbolic, a little bit more bombastic or a little bit more challenging, at the very least, and then it's just a pure form, direct response marketing business, and so it's like this three-legged beast of a business that makes it so fascinating to be a copywriter or marketer, if you love ideas anyway.

Patrick Bove:

Oh yeah. Yeah, you got to love ideas to be successful in this business and you got to be nimble too. It's just what's coming. I mean, I think copywriters most of the time if you told them a stock went up 10X, they'd say, wow, what was that? Most investors would say that's notable. That's something I want to get in on. And that's back to interest rates. That's just what's happened to just about like up nine X in two years.

Patrick Bove:

Yawn, you know nobody cares, but but I think this is this is one of those moments that's going to separate the the greats from this. Not so greats. You know, the ones who actually see what's happening and get ready and adjust are going to do extremely well, and the ones that don't are going to are going to do extremely well and the ones that don't are going to unfortunately suffer. It's just that's the fact. And I think the best part about being nimble and being connected to your audience like this is that you're able to make those changes. And then, if you're bearish and you're thinking and you're wrong, who cares? We all know what to do in a bull market. It's not hard. We all know what to do. It's just much easier. The hardest thing about selling in a bull market is differentiating yourself, because everywhere you look, people are one-upping each other with their promises and their stories. The challenge is how do I iterate this idea in a way that's not ridiculous, but in a way that's still exciting and not boring to the reader In a sideways to bearish market? It's just different. I oddly, oddly enough, prefer writing in a more bearish market. I prefer it because I like the challenge. I know most copywriters would not say that, but I've been through a couple of those moves and I really, just, I just deeply enjoy it because because I think there's something about, there's something about suffering that makes you stronger. There's something about like you go through something difficult that's beyond your control and you tame it or you survive it, or you come out the other end. You're just like you know what. That wasn't so bad. I got this. I know, I understand, I understand.

Patrick Bove:

But a lot of guys in this business they came into it after 2008, after 2009. All they know is up, and so I think that's my biggest concern for when it comes to my team, just like how do I help them adapt as a copy chief? How do I help them anticipate without you know, like, without leading them to, to, to, without making them move too early. It's just to put it that way, cause we can't lead the market either. The market's not bearish yet, but that doesn't. And maybe, maybe like if it doesn't matter.

Patrick Bove:

If I had perfect vision that next year the Dow is going to collapse 50% and NASDAQ's down 80%, I'm not saying I'm thinking that's going to happen. But even if I had perfect vision of that, it wouldn't help me sell right now. Nobody's going to believe that and then or the folks who do believe it, they're going to be so scared out of their mind they're probably not going to want to buy anything else. So, either way, it's a losing proposition to be ahead of your market. You have to be in tune with the market.

Patrick Bove:

But yeah, that's the challenge I have as a chief is to really just sort of think, think deeply, try to interpret what's happening, make the best educated guesses. I can and and and coach the team to the right decisions. You know, and, and I love it. You know when it works great. It's better feeling than writing a winning promo, when you when, as a chief, to work with somebody and help help them knock something out of the park, even from behind the scenes, even though my name's not on it. I love that feeling because it keeps the most talented guys really engaged and we're all high-fiving, we're having a good time.

Patrick Bove:

So that's what I live for as a copy chief to find and recruit the best talent and just give them that pathway to success. It's so much fun. I mean, I'm naturally a teacher at heart. I didn't go into teaching. I told my mom when I was growing up, like why is every job I want to do a poverty job? And I said now I know why you wanted to join the peace corps. So, uh, but thankfully copywriting is not that type of type of job. And, um, I found that outlet for teaching as a chief. You know where I could help help other folks this way that we've been talking about yeah, that's great to think the.

John Newtson:

There's something too about the selling in the, the bear market is that there's like in 2008 and this is we are not in the 2008 situation. It's a different disaster in some places, in opportunity, and it's almost like in 2008,. You had an extreme, almost catalytic disaster. That was extreme fear, um, and then you have, like, this building of almost it's uncertainty, but then anger comes with it and there is this part of any bear market that I feel like that once you get past the, the recognition, it's like the four stages of grief, you get to that anger stage and then the copy targeting those people, like when they're mad about, like because now it's like the government's messed up, somebody's doing something right.

John Newtson:

And some of my favorite promos as a, you know, as a copywriter, when I was writing and then also looking back on and you know, have been those fear promos now, even back into the 90s, direct mail. I remember, like you know, um, or or anger promos, I should say, because it's not, it's anger promos. I remember clayton make peace had one and it was shameless, two-faced sobs and it had pictures of, like, the ceos of all these companies who, um, they showed that they were selling stock while telling everybody else it was by and it was like this. You know duplicitous nature and it's like anger is a powerful promo. Um, that's not greed on the face, but it's such a powerful emotion oh, you can chat, you can channel it.

Patrick Bove:

That's the thing. Like we, we can take, uh, anger, greed, fear and and channel it. If you can, if you can handle, if you can do that as a copywriter, you're gonna make a ton of money in any, in any market. And, um, yeah, that anger is a live wire, I mean with the whole occupy wall street movement, with the bailouts and the controversy around that. And then, yeah, it's just the sense that it's so unfair and that's what's building.

Patrick Bove:

I think right now that the masses are absolutely seething and nobody gives a damn, like nobody in Washington, nobody in Wall Street. They don't care. But it's just building and building. If you're on social media, you really can tap into it and just see this growing frustration and despair and just sense that the world is just like it's beyond. It was always tilted, it was always rigged and it always will be.

Patrick Bove:

I think we tolerate that. We tolerate that when we can achieve what we set out to do in life, we feel like life's getting a little bit better every year. I can take care of my family, I could pay the rent, I could buy the house I want, I can save for retirement, like we'll put up with a whole bunch of BS when, when we ourselves are are thriving in some way. But when people feel like they're not thriving, then then that whole thing gets thrown into reverse. And the difference this time, I believe, is that I just don't think there's anything the government or the federal reserve could do to get us out of whatever's coming, because, uh, they can't cut rates right, they can't stimulate too hard because inflation is so high. If they do that, then they're going to kick us another step closer to hyperinflation, um, but if they raise them too high, they could kick us into deflation. So they're so. They're kind of, they're kind of stuck and all their favorite tools are, unless they can invent some other way, I don't know what, like the time machine bailout. I don't know how do you fix it, inject the money into I don't even know what, how you would fix what we're in.

Patrick Bove:

So, um, and you hear a lot of smart people saying we're heading for a repeat of the seventies. I don't know if that's true, but if we are, that's really exciting to me, cause I love telling a good oil story or a gold story. Um, there's plenty of opportunities there and we'll we'll know what we're in when we get to it. It'll be pretty clear and obvious when we're in it. Um, but it's, it's. It's interesting, it's fascinating to try to wonder and anticipate. But yeah, there's really no going back to the bubble era. Whatever comes next is going to be completely different and we're just going to have to adjust on the fly, like we always do, and do our best to focus in on the best, most believable stories and help people navigate and manage their money so they can actually make money and not get blown up. And that's what makes this business so fascinating.

Patrick Bove:

I think I've heard from other folks who work in, maybe, the health space that it's a bit boring because the health world doesn't change that much. There's the same problems, the same issues, similar solutions and there's not that much in the way of innovation. But our world, the financial world, is constantly changing and you better be on your toes and it's really stimulating and a lot of fun. So we have this. I almost I think of our businesses having this almost like not quite divine, but like a sacred duty to help people understand what's being done to them and what they can do about it, and that that, just that sense just flows through everything that I do, I'm obsessed with it.

Patrick Bove:

I love, I love our customers. I just love. Whenever I get a chance to meet them rarely, it's just like man, these are my people. Like I just love these people. They're just. I love people that are contrarian. I love people that question the status quo you know that just don't just take whatever said at face value and who are responsible enough to think for themselves and do something about it. Like these are the best people on earth. Like this is the and it's a privilege to serve them. So, yeah, I feel like I'm definitely in the right place.

John Newtson:

I love, I love this, having having been in a position where I've talked to most not everyone in the industry, but a lot of them. It's such a contrast to hear you say that to some other groups and some that are no longer around that were big at one point, to some of the key players having the exact opposite perspective on their customer, thinking that they were rubes, thinking that they hated them. They were politically different. They were, and they they loathed the customer, um, and how toxic that is to a business in general, but also like wants to live that way.

Patrick Bove:

Like oh yeah, I couldn't do it. I mean I, I mean there's sure there's plenty of gullible people out there, but I don't want them as customers. I don't want to. They're the worst customers. Talk about a customer service nightmare.

Patrick Bove:

I mean I I don't even know like why and I and I pushed our copywriters on that a lot I'm just I'll be really blunt. I'm saying the way you wrote this, we're only going to attract a bunch of idiots. Like why are you writing it this way? Like this is just surface level, there's nothing there. I don't want that person as a customer. Like how about? How about we upgrade this a bit so that that'll occasionally happen? Yeah, so that'll occasionally happen.

Patrick Bove:

Yeah, and I think and people are we have to be careful too, because we can't as a business, like you can make money in the short term attracting a more desperate type of person to the business because they have a pressing need and they're looking for a solution. But if you fail them, then it's a disaster and then it invites all kinds of unwanted things like regulation and inquiry. None of us want any of that. So I think the best we can do is just faithfully serve that customer and love the customer and be the customer Like I am a customer like I'm with, I'm standing shoulder to shoulder with them. I, if I felt like we were in the business where we're steering them the wrong way, I wouldn't want any part of it. I can't imagine, I can't imagine working that way. I just were steering them the wrong way. I wouldn't want any part of it. I can't imagine, I can't imagine working that way. I just I, I just can't, I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it. So, yeah, and I, and there's nobody else, we have to do this because there's just, I mean there are independent voices, thank goodness, springing up everywhere on Twitter and on a sub stack, for sure, I mean there's, we're not the only game in town anymore, but and thank goodness for that, I think that's great. I mean, hopefully, in a perfect world, they could be our farm team. I don't know. I don't know, or maybe they get so big they don't need to even work with us, but I don't know.

Patrick Bove:

There's just something. There's something great about being independent. There's something just truly wonderful about not being beholden to any advertisers, Because you see it all the time. You know, like the food companies that are poisoning our children, they're also advertising like mad on TV and radio and so in the newspapers. They're not going to discredit them, they're not going to call them out ever. Pharmaceutical companies, there are all kinds of things that are being done to us incorrectly or with malintent, and there's nobody else out there raising, raising the alarm.

Patrick Bove:

So, our, our business, um, we're not a perfect business and we make mistakes, you know for sure, and we pay for them. But, uh, but, the intention is always to help and to expose the truth and um, and thank goodness we can. You know cause, uh, and I think I think, if we're truly going into a fourth turning type scenario, our business could be in an incredible place. It could have an even more important role to play. You know, there's just, uh, it could, it could be, I, I think it could take on the qualities of a mass movement. You know, if we play our cards right and connect with the right people, uh, it could be a social force for good.

John Newtson:

Well, Well, I definitely think that you also look at the generation of journalism and, from a business model standpoint, most of the media sources anymore do not have a model that allows them to have a very robust investigative journalist kind of staff like they used to have, and so what you have like part of the problem with like quote unquote the mainstream media is that they're, by and large, not reporters really, they're talking about press releases and things like that, and that the real media like anymore.

John Newtson:

I feel like if you're worried about fake news, you're just a terrible media consumer because you can also go get amazing, amazingly nuanced, accurate information on any subject in any area from both sides. If you go to these niche places, do think is has the, like you say, the potential to be a real alternative voice, specifically around the financial markets. But how that fits into society? Um, because it isn't something that the the more corporate media anymore that's trying to go to a mainstream audience all the time can. They don't. They just can't even function that way that the whole business models failed in that sense.

Patrick Bove:

Yeah, that's, it's something to watch too. It's. The strangest thing is that people still, even people that don't trust the media, will react positively to a quote from the media. You know which is really so? I think it's. I think they're running on fumes, the media is running on fumes, and they're running on whatever their past glory. Um, just like a, like an athlete who was like hall of famer, who's just life's completely devolved. And they're running on whatever their past glory. Just like a, like an athlete who was like a hall of famer, who's just life's completely devolved. And they're just a criminal, but they're, they have their highlight reel right. So media perhaps has its own highlight reel, and people's heads were a position of authority, but at the same time, they've never been more doubted and discredited, and so, yeah, I mean somebody has got to step in and fill the void.

Patrick Bove:

It's really going to be an outright battle for that, for that placement, and, and whoever has the best ideas is going to win. Like that's, that's the, that's the beautiful, that's the promise of the internet, which I which has been exciting to me ever since I was just a kid as a teenager, this idea that, wow, like anybody could truly have a voice on here. It doesn't mean people are going to listen, but maybe you know, like there's a, there's a shot, and uh, and we know the best, the best voices and ideas will generally rise to the top. So it's, it's a legitimate chance, you know. And even if we can't, you know, like I've, I've, I've, you know, I'm mid forties now, so I've, I've, I don't, I'm not, I don't wake up every morning with the intent to change the world. I think that's taller. But if we could just arm people with the right information so they could change their life, then I'm a happy camper, you know I'm. Then we did our job and we're, and we're paid handsomely for it. You know, when we it's, it's a very symbiotic relationship and if the more we serve our customer, the better we serve our customer, the better our first financial results over time.

Patrick Bove:

And, uh, the business is cyclical, but I think if we can maintain that, those habits and those principles, then everything's going to be great, because I, I've seen it. The value is truly like having a raving fan. Having a raving you know, somebody who loves you and just can't wait to read what you're publishing next is going to want no-transcript because you're going to have a higher open rate because you're publishing something they value. And if we're not over the target and they're not opening their emails, and we know we're making a terrible mistake because we're, we're, we're taking advantage of their time or wasting their time, you know and they're, and they're gonna remember that.

Patrick Bove:

So, yeah, the whole business in a way has to stay over the target, not just, not just with copy and marketing, but with editorial. It's such a and it's it's not an easy task. It's not an easy task. But if we, I think, if we, if we, uh, if we can carry forward that that sort of activity, then then, and generally be right and generally follow that most of activity, then then, and generally be right and generally follow that most of the time, we're going to be fine.

John Newtson:

Yeah, I think you're right and I think that's the it's. It's a time in the business where it's almost like you have to think very clearly that you are a publisher. That means like there's a, there's a qualitative aspect to that. You have to oversight. See your material Like you know you have a perspective. You have to oversight. See your material like you know you have a perspective. You have quality. Your marketing has to fit that. Your copy messaging can't be dramatically different from your editorial messaging. It has to be cohesive, um, and so you have a good franchise in my mind and is something that has a very clear perspective on the world and is then speaking to the customer through that lens.

John Newtson:

And the investment opportunities are the ones that fit. That lens as well.

Patrick Bove:

What I love about well, porter really set this in motion but what I love about the business overall is that we hire and work with editors even if they're out of favor, even if we could barely sell them, if it's the type of information we want to give our own friends and family like, if like a guy like Chris Weber. We recently finally partnered with him. He's by far my favorite newsletter writer ever, but he has such a small following. He's never done any kind of promotion, but his work is so incredibly good and consistently great. His track record, his writing ability, is just second to none. He's a joy to read. So, anyway, we partnered with him and we just launched him, and was it a huge success? No, but it's a start.

Patrick Bove:

He doesn't have a list, it's just a start and we're investing in him and investing in his ideas and we want to spread his ideas, and the fact that we can do that is a wonderful thing. So I'm glad that we're I mean, I'm glad that we've struck a balance to being over the target and focusing on what investors want, but I'm also glad we have the bandwidth to bring in other editors that may be outside of their, outside of their interests, outside of their awareness and introduce them to it, and it's going to make them more successful over time. It's going to upgrade the business over time, I think. I think it's every, every business in our niche has to think that way. Because if you only if you're only focusing on what people want right now and it's almost like it's like working out in the gym and only working your right arm you know, it's just like you're, you're're shredded over here, but then you have this little tiny like twig and it doesn't make any sense.

Patrick Bove:

It's just it's. But people don't see it that way because I think they chase uh, they chase opportunity because because the rewards are there and so clear, but, um, but over the long term it turns you into this, like you know, ridiculous looking creature that hasn't fully developed. And then, and then when, when, when you got to come somehow, when life calls on you to use your left arm you can't.

John Newtson:

It's not even there withered away. That's so true so I don't want to take. I know we're coming up on the hour here. So if anybody is a senior writer who's done about 10 million in sales in a year, or 50,000 front end names, how do they, how do they reach out and say, hey, I want to come to your, your copy set summit?

Patrick Bove:

Yeah, they can reach out to me directly. So, just, people have a P B O V E at legacy researchcom. And yeah, no, no guarantees at this point because we're it's a small and select crowd. But if I mean at this point, if we did hear from the right person, I would make every effort to get them in. But hey, the worst case scenario, there's no downside to reaching out, because even if let's just say it's not a good fit, or even if there's not enough time like you're on my radar this is a long game. Just don't pin your hopes on one interaction with anybody in this business. If I get to know you and like you over the years, then chances are we're going to work together. So, yeah, just take that shot if you're interested.

Patrick Bove:

The worst I could say is, no, don't take it personally if that's the case. We all got to start somewhere and we build. So I love copywriters, I love working and thinking out loud with them and recruiting them is a joy too. But we played a long game as well. So there may come a time in the next couple of years where I am bringing on a junior class. We're just not doing it now. But hey, there's no harm in reaching out and getting on my radar. And if you are a good fit for this event, then we'll be happy to invite you and fly you up to Baltimore and yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm not sure if we're going to record it or not or make it public. It might stay pretty close to the vest, but if it's a success and people really enjoy it which I assume they will then we'll, I'm sure we'll be doing more in the future.

John Newtson:

So, uh, I'm definitely looking forward to it and uh and I'm looking forward to seeing you too.

Patrick Bove:

Finally, meeting you in person.

John Newtson:

Yeah, it'd be awesome. So I appreciate you doing this. This has been a lot of fun. A little more time on copy itself and there's so much we can geek out on on copy and um, uh, so thanks and love to have you back.

Patrick Bove:

Absolutely. It'd be my pleasure Anytime. All right, thanks, patrick, take care. Bye.